Grooming on Devils River and Kosak

freshtracks · Post by **freshtracks** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:06 am

Does anyone understand what is up with the lack of grooming on these two runs. They have blown snow piled up on them for almost three weeks without any effort to make these runs skiable.

T360 · Post by **T360** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:17 am

Thanks for the question.

We'll try to find out ... will report back.

freeskier678 · Post by **freeskier678** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:24 pm

Also Vertige too had had them for awhile. The expense has been made on blowing the snow so why not use it?

T360 · Post by **T360** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:05 am

Sorry for the delay in reply here, however, we did manage
to get in to talk to the Ski Patrol at the Summit at last run
yesterday.

Firstly, Cossak was milled flat last Wed. night, we knew that
but failed to recall it until reminded by a ride up Duncan yesterday.
It is still a designated Mogul run, so it will not be groomed further,
at least not at this stage anyway.

We were told that Devils River has been the subject of much discussion
within the organization but that in the final analysis, it was decided to
leave it the way it was.

This decision on Devils River was made after some complaints were
received about hazards that necessitated a visit to the run to review
those complaints. The run was found to have hazards, but to a far
lesser extent than what had been complained about, and well within
what naturally occurs by the hand of Mother Nature for a Black Diamond.

We talked about how it is unlikely that every run could be ideal for every
skier/boarder preference and that someone, at sometime, needs to
make a decision based on what the majority of qualified people prefer, with
safety and trail durability factored in.

We talked about how sometimes the complaints come from intermediate
skill users about expert trails, so the fact that none of the experts that like
the run feel the need to complain, skews the feedback.

Basically, it comes down to "In who's opinion is it good or bad", so for
Devils River, the consensus of the expert users consulted, the preference
was to leave it.

We are going there today to ski it and take pic's, then Apres Ski, we'll
load up the images and talk about how we found it.

As far as leaving the Big Bumps on any runs, we had our first taste of how
controversial this topic was when a couple of years ago we were in on the
North Base for an early Jan. mid-morning warm-up and overheard a large
group of U.K. visitors arguing about wether or not they should be there on
Expo. Some in the group said those bumps had no place on the Mountain,
while others were going on and on about how much fun they were.

If you don't like the big bumps, you probably won't want them left anywhere,
but if you like them, you probably won't mind finding them anywhere.

What can you say, other than individual preferences are just that, individual.

The way we like to say it is... "Some people like Blondes, Some people prefer
Brunette's".

As far as a strategy for managing Mountain surfaces, the big bumps are brilliant.

As kids, back in another century, we often had to wait 'til mid Feb for Mother
Nature to fill in Expo, even in a good year, now they just bury all those cliffs,
stumps and rocks under the big bumps, wait a few days for it to settle, and
open Expo in less than a week in early December with better conditions than
we ever had.

We'll take that any day.

Back to 'ya later with the Devils River Pic's...

.

freshtracks · Post by **freshtracks** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:49 am

Thanks for the lengthy explaination. I am not sure I understand the hazard issue on Devils river. If you are referring to the drainage ditchs, would it not make sense to use the snow to make the run less hazardous. I like the bumps at first until they get so icy they are unskiable and dangerous. Please ask Tremblant to groom the run for the enjoyment of all skiers.

freeskier678 · Post by **freeskier678** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:35 pm

I don't think any skier likes hard ice mounds that you can't grip on. Devils River should be closed the mounds themselves are the biggest hazard.

T360 · Post by **T360** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:07 pm

Page under construction, additional text to follow...

We estimate that Devils River had close to 8 to 10 inches of
powder snow on its surfaces today, so as a Black Diamond,
it was in excellent natural condition for expert Skiers and Boarders.
There were underlaying icy bits on the downhill side of some of the big
bumps, however, the Atomic ST11 slalom skis with their fresh edges
had no trouble holding on them in test mode, ie: side-slipping down them.

Based on our style and preference we chose a powder line on it that
basically followed the right hand edge where the drifting factor that
we so often speak of, formed powder deposits of up to 18 inches or so
in the low contours of the land.

Scroll down for the last two Pics.

Everyone expert enough was having a blast on this run and many
loud hoots could be heard by those exiting the run at the bottom
where there also happened to be significant powder build up as
shown in these pic's.

We would recommend that for best results, expert skill level skiers
and boarders should be the only users of this Officially designated
Black Diamond run, as in its current condition, it is a challenge
for even top level participants.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Excerpt from our daily conditions report for Devils River based on
use 2/9/11:

Powder Snow lines were abundant on all 4 sides of Tremblant
yesterday and Expert skiers and boarders were letting out
big whoops of joy that could be heard echoing through the trees
as they surfed the snowy contours of the un-groomed runs
like this example, Devils River, on the North Side.

Looking at this skier coming off the Devils River run-out,
you can see the evidence of the knee height powder snow drifts
that he has been skiing through to get to this point as there is
snow stuck on him up to his waist from blasting through them.

For "Go Anywhere, Ski Anything" experts, this kind of terrain is
a rare treat and those people were not shy at all about telling
us how much fun they were having.

The whole reason we were on Devils River was to investigate comments
and questions asked here on the T360 forums about why Devils River
has not been groomed and why the big snowmaking bumps have been
left on this run without flattening them out.

The answer we were given is that Devils River has been left this way
as part of the variety of terrain that Tremblant offers to Skiers and Boarders
who like the conditions exactly the way they are on this run.

It is not our position to agree or disagree with any specific preference for
trail preparations, all we can do is tell you what we found, what we have
been told, and to provide as much supporting evidence as we can with
detailed pic's. From that point forward you can decide whether or not to go
there and/or let the management know if you would like to see otherwise.

This is a very difficult position to be in because on one hand, some people
would like to see Devils River groomed, while others are taking great delight
in it, in the current un-groomed condition. Obviously it can't be both.

What we found was an Experts Only, un-groomed trail with a powder snow
surface of 6 to 12 inches in depth, depending on wind drifting and land contours,
over a base of natural snow with very large blown snow Bumps of variable
dimensions ranging from 8 to 50 feet in diameter, and from 2 to 7 or 8 feet
in height.

Under the Powder we found the substrate to be soft, user packed snow to
very firm and solid frozen blown snow that had some slick portions on the
downsides of the big bumps. We have sharp edges on our skis, so a sideslip
test on the downside of the big bumps showed edge set can be maintained
with reduced speed, however, if your edges on either skis or board are not
sharp, edge set and control could be difficult.

Devils River is a Black Diamond, so it is rated for experts only by definition
and if you are a genuine expert, you will find that it is easy to navigate
provided that your speed is appropriate for the contours and surface conditions.

As regular skiers at Tremblant for almost 40 years, we found it interesting and
moderately challenging, with a very big Powder Snow Fun Factor with careful
attention to choosing a line through the terrain that permitted absolute speed
control at all times.

Further back up Devils River, the same skier shown above, has chosen
a line close to the edge where knee deep powder snow was found
extending aprox 3 to 5 meters out from the side toward the middle of
the run.

This terrain requires top level expert technique.

Please Note that some expert Skiers and Boarders prefer terrain that is
left un-groomed with large moguls.

For that group, Devils River will undoubtably appeal.

If you do not like raw un-groomed terrain, this is not an appropriate selection.

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