Beginner area lacking

[richardvoyageur]

My friend asked me to post her experience with Tremblant's beginner area from our 3 full days on the hill last week.

She hated it! Equilibrium is a joke if you ask me, WAY too small for the amount of instructors and people that were accessing the hill, whether that's holiday time or anytime. It's sad when 3 Ontario hills (Blue Mountain, Moontone & Horseshoe Valley) blow away the biggest hill in Eastern Canada when it comes to a dedicated beginner area.

I thought it was horribly small and inadequate, they need to address that issue as soon as possible in my mind. The one at Blue Mountain is so much better it's not even funny, it's triple the width and probably triple the height as well. Each of the hills I've been to has multiple "carpet" runs and even bigger beginner runs.

Nansen and P'tit Bonheur were not options in my view for someone that couldn't link turns. We simply couldn't bring her up on the chairs for risk that it would take her an hour to get down and many bumps and bruises. Also, the number of flat spots on Nansen is not conducive to learning on a snowboard, she would have been stuck all over the place and having to unstrap is frustrating to beginners.

I think Tremblant has to address this glaring problem if they want to keep getting the beginner crowd. I found it to be very beginner "unfriendly" and more importantly, so did my friend.

[T360]

Hi Richard...

Point Duly Noted...

Of course it goes almost without saying that
the forum only exists as a facilitator for the message
and should a response be forthcoming from
"The Powers That Be", that would be good.

We'll just have to wait and see...

Our personal hope is that your friend's desire to participate
in the sport is not diminished. Seeing as how you're in Sudbury,
it may be worth organizing a trip over to Searchmont.

We have a team member here that spent a lot of time
crawling around the bunny hill there teaching people to
"snow plow" and can recommend that as a viable option
to get your friends progress back on track. Searchmont
is a 750 vertical, Pre-Cambrian Geographic feature, a
"mini-Tremblant", say just a wee bit shorter than "Expo".
That makes it bigger than "Blue" and Sault Ste. Marie
is a far shorter drive for you at 2.8 Hrs on #17 which is
very well maintained.

It is 20% Expert, 60% Intermediate, 20% Beginner.
It is good enough to have produced more than one
Canadian National Team member.
See second last paragraph in this link...
http://www.tremblant360.com/tremblant36 ... ?f=2&t=473

There used to be a small group that drove over almost
every weekend. At least it's an option.

.

[richardvoyageur]

We actually had a trip planned for Searchmont last year and we had to cancel due to family emergency. My beginner friend is actually from Toronto so it's a bit of a tough drive joining us in Searchmont

We're going to Sun Peaks in about 2 months, can't wait!

But to stay on topic, what is your opinion of the beginner area at Tremblant? What I wanted was some dialogue on the subject.

[T360]

While on one hand we have met "never ever" absolute beginners
(say up to a dozen or so) who have had their first Alpine experience
at Tremblant, the number in no way would constitute a sufficient group
for a statistically valid survey sample, so we have to say that right up front.

So then, out of that dozen or so, we've not had direct complaints about
the beginner areas, but that may be because they simply do not have
any basis of comparison themselves, never, ever having slid down a slope
anywhere else yet.

We would have to speak directly with a number of "never ever's" to
see if there was a consensus.

We've had our kids on this mountain since age 2 or so, but it was never
really an issue with them, we just put 'em on the ground at the top and
let 'em go, so to speak, but we know kids are different.

Tremblant's South Side base may present a logistical challenge to planning
a large dedicated beginner area because of the confining nature of the
rock formations on either side of Johannsen.

Looking down at it from the last crest above the base, it is fairly
narrow down there. You can also see the service/Heavy equipment
corridor(referred to below), on the extreme lower left corner of this
pic.

www.tremblant360.com photo. All rights reserved.

Johannsen.Runout.a.TG.jpg (161.41 KiB) Viewed 17844 times

When you look at the size of the rock face they had to blast through to
put the Nansen runout along the top of the ridge just above the Fairmont,
you can see that there's no real room to expand there.

www.tremblant360.com photo. All rights reserved.

Rock Wall Behind Fairmont.TG.jpg (252.49 KiB) Viewed 17838 times

(Sorry for the grainy pic quality, but it's a chunk out of a telephoto
from the other side of Lac Tremblant.)


On the other side, if you look at the cliff rising up under the first accent
of the Gondola, there's no room there either, which would mean having
to take space from Johannsen, say put a Poma or a T-Bar up a portion of
either side. Looking at the first, top pic. above, the left side would be the least
likely we would think, because the Mountain crews use that extreme left side
as a service highway for Groomer/Packer and Ski-doo traffic 24 hours a day.
We think that's been like that since 1938 and because a service corridor is
essential to Mountain maintenance, you gotta' have one somewhere, we don't
think that could/should be changed.

www.tremblant360.com photo. All rights reserved.

Rock Wall Under Gondola.TG.jpg (146.82 KiB) Viewed 17837 times

(Sorry for the grainy pic quality, but it's a chunk out of same telephoto
from the other side of Lac Tremblant.)

That would leave the right hand side of Johannsen, as shown in the top above
pic., as the only "Quick" option for space, but anything you put there would
either reduce the size of the lower Johannsen runout, or if it was open to
public traffic, would be like putting beginners on an exit ramp off the 401
in Toronto at rush hour.

As desirable as everyone could agree it would be, it may not be quite
so practical to have a larger beginner area at the resort base. The cost
to construct, that would require removing thousands of cubic meters of
pre-cambrian bedrock, would be prohibitive we're guessing, and it may
well be that they are not allowed to do that at all because of the
covenants on the leased Provincial Parkland. Not sure on that one...

Evidently, there are some who have been able to travel the path of learning
here despite the generally more demanding elevations and steep pitches of
Tremblant's topographical features (the Blessings of Mother Nature).
There are thousands of "Never Ever" that have learned to ski here since 1938.
Tremblant's history from the very start has, and continues to be, to
encourage participation in winter Alpine Sports for all who wish to try,
and the annals are filled with literally generations of success stories.

It is true that Tremblant was designed as a Ski Mountain in 1938, well
prior to the invention of the Snowboard, so that in a way, leads to a
geographic technicality:

Terms of definition we might call:

"Geographic suitability for a purpose."

As the expression goes, "The lay of the land"

"The lay of the land" at Horseshoe, Blue and Moonstone is indeed
better suited to Board and Ski beginners as a whole.

One things for sure, if a student is successful at learning from scratch
here at Tremblant, they'll be able to Ski or Board anywhere in the world
because the lay of this land demands technical competence and a receptive
Tremblant student will make rapid progress.


There is another option for beginners that exists right now though, oddly
enough, it's "Back To The Future" because we think the best answer now
is pretty much what they did with beginners in 1938.

we'll elaborate on that directly... we just wanted to get a start on this
FYI, back later.


.

[freeskier678]

The Carpets can't be expanded anymore then they already are, it wasn't that long ago that the Equilbrium was just one carpet instead of two. Their is just no room at the bottom of the Southside, over developed and surrounded by steep terrain.
Speaking for the "real" beginner terrain, the way Tremblant is geographical is just awful for trying to put in a beginner run. Tremblant sort of has this shape flat...then near the top is just gets steep. Snaking a beginner run down it is hard. Improvements made to the beginner terrain is the new beginner run on Le Soleil which I still have yet to ski so no comment on it. Also 2 seasons ago Nansen was given a $500,000 improvement to regrade the bottom portion, you should have seen it before today. A steep pitch to a long long long flat ski-out. Used to nickname the steep portion " The Boneyard " because of how many people fell their.
New expansion though is pretty hard to do since Tremblant is in a provincial park so getting approval to cut trees is not easy. Overall I think Tremblant is more of an advanced and expert ski hill. Even though most of the skiers that come here are beginners. We can't really do much about the geography of the place so I don't see any new beginner terrain opening anytime soon, and getting approvals to cut and re-shape runs is not possible with the new "save every tree" attitude nowadays.

[richardvoyageur]

I didn't get a chance to hit up the Soleil side when we were there between Dec 27-30th...I wonder if there is any suitable grades over there for a nice beginner slope. It would be very hard to squeeze anything else in on that south portion though, you guys are right.

Wow, so half a million to upgrade nansen eh? I avoided that one and only took it twice when I was there due to the flat portions (snowboarders). I didn't get stuck there but you needed decent speed to get through, I had to straightline a few spots.

The worst spot for me was right in the middle of the hill, coming from nansen to Mi Chemin and down from there. that flat spot is BRUTAL, i had to unstrap every time, i never made it once, even with bigtime speed (as much as I dared as a pretty decent snowboarder).

[T360]

Hi Richard,

The key to any right from scratch beginner is to get them so they can
slide more or less, despite what limitations there are for the existing
beginner area, even if it means hiking them for a few. They'll be motivated
to get off the beginner zone quick enough if you make 'em work for it.

Once they're so motivated, immediately prepare them mentally, then physically
to get on the Flying Mile Quad Chair.

The personnel at the Flying Mile(and all other lifts too...), are particularly tuned to
beginners and they will literally slow the chair down to a crawl to accommodate
your friend, if need be.

Once you get them to the top, you can descend them on 2 options:

Option #1.... Trail #5, La Passe to lower Nansen. This is an absolutely
brilliant beginner area and this track will give the beginner and instructor
literally miles of some of the most gentle slope on the Mountain.

Option #2 ..... #10, Standard, to the TGV sector of #9 Mi-Chemin,
which has a fairly consistent pitch, right to the TGV. By the
time you get them that far, they should be capable of using the
entire width of a run to swing a turn, going from side to side across
in a shallow zig-zag.

This next chunk, from the TGV down about 30 meters, is the only
comparatively steep portion, but that's why you need them to be
able to use the whole width by then. Of course you need to be
constantly vigilant regarding passing traffic, but 30 meters is
not that far and even if it takes a while, it's still only 30 meters.

Now you're at the top of # 31, Biere-en-bas, which is "Green"
all the way to # 27 Roy Scott which you take to Equilibre, and in.

If you look at all the post card pics of "Never Ever's" from 1939
onward, you will see that even way back then, they knew it was
really important to get the beginners up to the top of Flying Mile,
as soon as possible, and from then on, thousands have learned
how to ski at Tremblant, from scratch, and gone on to tell the
generations that followed, all about it.

Screenshot Courtesy of www.tremblant.ca Downloadable pdf Trail Map file.

Trail Map.South.Lower.Detail.jpg (399.02 KiB) Viewed 17619 times

.

[T360]

We agree with Freeskier678 points as well.

"Overall I think Tremblant is more of an advanced and expert ski hill.
Even though most of the skiers that come here are beginners. We can't
really do much about the geography of the place so I don't see any new
beginner terrain opening anytime soon, and getting approvals to cut and
re-shape runs is not possible with the new "save every tree" attitude
nowadays." - Freeskier678

This is a good summary on the main issue regarding "The Lay Of The Land".

With that, please keep in mind we said way above...

"One things for sure, if a student is successful at learning from scratch
here at Tremblant, they'll be able to Ski or Board anywhere in the world
because the lay of this land demands technical competence and a receptive
Tremblant student will make rapid progress."

Your initial question on this Forum was:

"Best runs for intermediate snowboarder next week?"

We went back through that whole thread and could not find
any Q,s regarding beginners, so....

Just to be fair and for the help and benefit of future readers that
might have any similar concerns, and with all due respect....

If anyone reading this in the future is planning to bring a
never ever to Tremblant, please let us know in advance so we can
assist in whatever way is possible, beyond what is already here.

If you had asked us at that time about bringing a "never ever"
to Tremblant, we would have been able to give you these
insights prior to your arrival, which might have helped your
friend be at least mentally better prepared for what she would
face, rather than having to go through this "Hindsight" process.

We think this is just one of those "Live 'n Learn" situations that happen
every now and again and in your defense, we completely understand that
hindsight is 20/20 vision.

Now on to another point regarding your friend...

Firstly though, we must say that this point is only put forth as a
hypothetical, conceptual, theoretical and/or "all of the above"
idea.

Basic Concept: Everything has an "Ideal suitability of, or for a purpose"

If you looked at Tremblant and said "It's more of an advanced or expert
Alpine Area", you would find many that agree. If you agreed with that,
then it could be then said that Tremblant's suitability is ideally biased
toward that group.

Take Freeskier678's point... "We can't really do much about the geography
of the place...", so the above statement about suitability for advanced or
experts makes sense.

When it comes to your friend's "Ideal suitability of, or for a purpose"...

...How do you know that she may not be better suited toward Skiing
instead of Boarding in terms of her body's natural capabilities for
movement or action? If she is truly a "Never Ever" how could you
verify that her natural aptitude might not favour the "Other" Alpine
discipline?

At this stage of the beginners development, we think a level of open
mindedness toward even the remote possibility of how natural
"Aptitude" could effect her experience should be taken into account.

The extension of this is that the most fundamental component of the
never ever beginner is the desire to be on the Mountain, first, then
thoroughly evaluate Both options to see which one the never ever
beginner is ideally suited for in terms of aptitude as well as desire.

Bottom line on this point is that the possibility exists that the way
her brain and/or body works naturally, may be better suited to
skiing over boarding.

We realize this is an issue of highly subjective and preferential opinion,
but to be as objective as possible and for her benefit, she will never
know without trying.









.

[richardvoyageur]

We weren't aware she was coming at the time, and such a big hill you figure would have something other than equalibrium.

Anyone that's snowboarded before would know that getting a beginner from "never ever" to "won't kill themselves on a green run" is about 6 hours time. You simply can't get down the hill without huge bails if you don't put in that solid 6 hours. She simply couldn't get her solid 6 hours on equilibrium as it was a ZOO on all 3 days.

My recommendation, as a 4 year snowboarder that has taught 3 people so far (one last night actually), is to stay away from Tremblant until you can at the very least traverse on both the heelside and toesides. If of course you can catch equalibrium at a quiet time, then that's great, but why take the chance? I would say go to a place with a bigger dedicated beginner area.

[powdersc]

Richard.

Respectfully, I am going to have to disagree with this last post regarding no green terrain for beginners. I do agree the mounatin should look into alternative measures in getting another carpet and dedicated "beginner" area. Unfortunately I dont think with the financial status of SMT you will see this anytime soon. Having said this, i do believe there is plenty of terrain for beginners to hoan their skills on various greens on different locations on the mountain.

For example, on the south - Crete to Nansen to Mi chemin to biere en bas and then the run out.. roy scott? These trails alone from top to bottom would give any beginner the opportunity to learn without worrying about steep pitches or lengthy flats. On the south off expo, Sissy schuss is a great green that seldom gets alot of traffic due to its entrace point. im sure there are more examples that others can add to.

I dont believe an individual needs to be able to use heelside and toe side to hit any of these runs mentioned. When first learning, we are taught to sideslip, some people call it a falling leaf as this is what it resembles. when the individual feels confident enough with the falling leaf, they can then progress to letting their board out a bit into the fall line and making their "leaf" longer across the trail.

I do agree people give up too fast on it though when trying it out for the first time. You definitely have to take a few lumps before you can be accustomed to the board on your feet and the way it reacts. The learning curve from there is very sharp!!